November 20, 2008
-{6:28 am}-
Filed by trumwill from Elsewhere

Doctresses & Nerds

It’s a common notion in some circles on both the left (feminists) and right (borderline or full misogynists) that successful women paint themselves into a corner when they become successful and demand an equally or more successful man or otherwise are spurned by less successful men who feel threatened. There is also the notion that since women have excelled in the workplace, assortive mating has become a deeper problem since male lawyers are now marrying other lawyers instead of their secretaries and doctors are marrying female doctors rather than nurses. I’m not going to get into the veracity of either of these notions except to say that there is some truth to it but the picture is actually a lot more complicated in the longer and deeper views.

I say this as a segue to a couple comments that I’ve been making recently that SFG has picked up on and asked me to elaborate on. While it’s true that people very frequently marry into their level of success and that if there is a difference it’s usually the man that is more successful, the notion that doctors marry doctors (or lawyers or others of similar success) doesn’t mesh with the reality that I’ve seen on the outside looking in to my wife’s medical profession. The male doctors I’ve come to know generally seem to partner up with future homemakers. More interesting to SFG is that female doctors seem more inclined to marry engineering and computer types than fellow doctors or otherwise “alpha males” (unless one uses the term circularly to define anyone that lands a doctor). Male doctors seem to marry cheerleaders, female doctors seem to marry nerds.

The careers of my wife’s female colleagues go as follows: IT grunt (me), engineer, engineer, IT grunt, engineer, low-wage service worker, grad student (major unknown), IT-something, military man (rank unknown), cowboy, IT-something. There are a couple that haven’t met their partner yet and others I don’t really know about, but of the female docs that have a partner that I know about, 7 of the 11 are or were either in an engineering or IT career or some sort and none were doctors.

I should add a disclaimer here in that my wife is in a particular field that is likely not representative of the medical profession as a whole. Family practitioners on the whole tend to be less money-oriented, more politically liberal, and more family-oriented than say surgeons for instance. That may skew the results a little, but it seems to be a pattern wherever we go. There are also other things that lead me to believe that doctors frequently (if not always) favor nerd-types.

To explore this, I think it might be best to go back all the way to medical school. One interesting observation that Clancy shared with me shortly after we first met was that in her medical school class, about two-thirds or three-quarters of her male classmates were married, engaged, or in a serious relationship likely headed in that direction. The same was only true of about a third of her female classmates. There is a certain contingent of woman that flocks to (or is extremely receptive towards) a man with the intelligence, discipline, and earning potential of a doctor. To the extent that there is a contingent of men that do the same, it’s much smaller. So to support the first notion above, being successful helps men a lot more than it does women securing a mate.

So we can pretty safely assume that female doctors have fewer options than their male counterparts. There are a lot of reasons for this. Being a doctor has a mystique all its own to the point that there is a generational custom that they are the picks of the litter. Women haven’t been doctors for nearly long enough to have that sort of reputation and there are other social obstacles to prevent that from being true even if it were so. More often than not, above a certain income line (a line that doctors are certainly above) the male is the primary earner and if there are children involved it will be women that either leave the workforce or take a career-progression hit by needing to bow out for extended periods and work fewer hours to take care of the children. So a woman’s earning power is on the whole less advantageous than a man’s.

One of the things that I’ve learned is that it can be quite frequently harmful to one’s career to be married to a doctor in particular. My case may be unusually so because I’ve had to move twice in the last three years and three times in the last six. But it’s often true even without our particular circumstances. You have to pick up and move to the location of her residency. Then you have to move again to wherever you’re going to practice. The places that you’re moving to are not necessarily places that are going to help your career. If you have children during this time, you will have to be the one to take time off work to pick up the slack that she can’t because she’s so frequently working or sleeping. Three of the above-mentioned 11 have children and two of those three (both engineers) became stay-at-home fathers for their young children while their wives were residents and only one wife of a male resident worked (part time, and their marriage did not survive the residency).

Another factor to consider here is that female doctors are smart. They not unreasonably want a man that is also smart. So what they need is a man that is simultaneously smart but without the ambitions that smart people often have. This is not a significant portion of the male population. It does, however, describe a lot of nerds.

In the IT sector, other than software developers it seems to be a career that people stumble into more than anything. That’s true of my generation at least. We were introduced to computers, liked them, then eventually realized that there was money to be made there. Nerds are notoriously inflexible in some things, but when it comes to their careers I think that they are more flexible than most. The job isn’t something that energizes us so much as it is something to do to make the money to buy the toys that do energize us or in the alternative allow for us to take care of our families. If computer nerds don’t have to worry about making a whole lot of money, we can satisfy achievement-hunger and purpose-thirst working on our set-ups at home, writing our own software, designing our own websites, and so on.

Engineers are a bit tougher to figure out, though, because they spent a lot more time and energy getting their qualifications than most computer people did. I think it’s the case there, too, that a lot of them went into engineering primarily for the paycheck rather than to take the world by storm as a captain of industry or whatnot. Those that want to advance seem to often want to do so for primarily financial reasons rather than the raw ambition of making a difference. Maybe if you worked for NASA in the 1960’s or are today are an environmental engineer on a crusade, but I think it’s often the case that they found that the tasks of the job fit their strengths and it was a good paycheck. Further, engineers are generally practical individuals and marrying a doctor is often a practical thing to do!

And on the subject of practicality, engineering and IT work are (in my experience) tend to be full of people that are, if not liberal, pretty open-minded and somewhat socially open-minded or sometimes even progressive (at least prior to having children). They’re probably less likely than most to be bothered by the idea of being out-earned by their spouse. They’re less likely to be competitive about it. IT people in particular often veer towards passivity (remember that they did sort of stumble into their career much of the time). Some respond by insecure and defensive, but a lot don’t.

It seems that most other careers I can think of don’t meet one of the important above characteristics. Professors may be open-minded, but they’re ambitious in their own way and their job isn’t portable. Business majors are more likely to ambitious and are much more frequently competitive. Lawyers as a class are not well-regarded by doctors, so that’s a problem all its own, but you usually have the ambition problem in addition to that. With blue collar work there is frequently an intelligence gap or a lack of social progressiveness. Teachers are probably often a good fit (my personal experience in Southern Tech University’s College of Education notwithstanding), though you do have issues varying from transportability (if you’re trying to take your license across state lines) to political conflict (teachers frequently believe that medical care should be as free as education and doctors fear that free medical care will be as good as our free education system).

There is also one last thing that SFG himself touches on, which is the idea that it’s frequently the case that female doctors are former nerds themselves. I’m not entirely sure because I don’t know what my wife’s female colleagues were like when they were younger. I should point out that Clancy herself is the daughter of an engineering economist and herself went to college with the intention of becoming an engineer. Part of the problem here is that there really isn’t much of a stereotype of a female nerd to draw from. They are almost by definition inordinately book-smart. Maybe I need to start finding out what their fathers did in addition to what their husbands do since most female nerds are the product of nerdy fathers.

12 Comments

  1. The woman doctor/cowboy pairing sounds quite interesting!

    Comment by Peter — November 20, 2008 @ 8:06 am

  2. My brother-in-law married a pre-med student in a “shotgun wedding” and became a stay-at-home dad. That was seven years ago. She is now finishing up her residency.

    Your description — smart without ambition — fits him to a tee. He got a liberal arts degree and spent several years just knocking around before trying for a graduate degree in geology. He has that easygoing low-stress personality made famous in “Wayne’s World” and “Bill & Ted”. (I think he did a lot of weed in high school.)

    For a variety of reasons — personality, physicality, job as rock-climbing instructor — “alpha” status came easily to him, at least in the context of the college campus where he attracted the attention of a much-younger pre-med student.

    But now? Word from my father-in-law is that he feels acutely the status gap, and is counting on his wife’s promise to moderate her work hours so as to allow him time to start a career of some sort. (Probably teaching, but at 38 it’s a late start.)

    I was surprised to hear about his perception of the status issue, since he’s naturally so easygoing. For his sake, I take comfort in the possibility that these kind of mis-matches are fairly typical, and do not necessarily doom the relationship.

    Comment by ? — November 20, 2008 @ 9:28 am

  3. If you know any looking in my area… :P

    Comment by Webmaster — November 20, 2008 @ 10:01 am

  4. For what it’s worth, out-earning me is more or less a deal-breaker for me. Fortunately, only a few percent of women make more than I do, so it’s largely an academic point.

    And cowboy? I didn’t know that was still an actual job. You mean a rodeo cowboy, or one who actually herds cattle?

    Φ:
    How does a man whose wife is a pre-med student become a stay-at-home dad? A pre-med student is more than four years away from making any money at all, and a few more than that away from making doctor money.

    Comment by Brandon Berg — November 20, 2008 @ 10:19 am

  5. Phi,

    I can understand where the guy is coming from. I wouldn’t say that I personally have an issue with the status gap, but some of the issues that Clancy and I do have stem from some of the same sources. I think that this is particularly true during the residency years and I hope it lays off some once we’re settled down somewhere.

    Bigger than the status issue can be the lack of autonomy. The feeling like you’re a hanger-on in someone else’s adventure and achievement. I think that even relatively unambitious people eventually start asking themselves what exactly they’re here to do other than simply to support. Especially when what you do outside of the family is more intrinsic to the male persona than the female one, but even with that I now have much more than just a theoretical understanding of why a lot of women want to pursue careers later in life when they financially don’t need to and why being a stay-at-home wife, admirable as it is, may not be enough for some (and this fact doesn’t make bad people).

    Clancy has been as supportive as can be imagined with me in this. She’s always encouraging me to stake out my future terrain, though that’s hard to do without knowing exactly where we will be. I’ve extracted a couple promises (or at least promises of consideration) of my own for the future in more personal fulfillment.

    Even so, I think that it’s something that people that fit a certain profile (with which there is an overlap with nerddom) are more easily able to handle because they generally need less than a more ambitious business-major type, lawyer, or fellow doctor. They have more lattitude to give since they more rarely have concrete ambitions. Even with that, though, I think that there is a natural urge to do something.

    I don’t know your brother-in-law or his wife, but it seems quite likely that they will make it through their current difficulties. He’s at the end of a very long and trying ride. He’s probably worn thin on the patience he’s had to display with a wife that can devote only part of her attention to him and he nonetheless needs to give as much as he can in support.

    But, importantly, there’s a very real chance that the worst is behind him. One of the big problems, his wife’s lack of autonomy in the institutional medschool and residency system, will soon be passing. I’ve found it generally true in my life that there are some pressures that make all other pressures seem that much more daunting. Take away those pressures and the other ones become more manageable. There’s still a minefield out there (if your in-law-in-law renegs on her promises to moderate hours, for instance), but at least with residency over there will be the room to work through problems. During residency, you sometimes find yourself living in a world of perpetual procrastination where everything that gets settled tomorrow has its shadow cast over you now.

    Maybe some of this is less universal than I think and I’m drawing too much on my own experiences, but they’re what I got to work with.

    Comment by trumwill — November 20, 2008 @ 10:36 am

  6. I’m not as successful as a female doctor, but I’ve done okay and am definitely trying to drive up the corporate ladder. There’s no question that it was a challenge in meeting men when I was single, for many seemed uncomfortable with the prospect (or perhaps competition). When I was in Hawaii, my mom was hoping I’d meet and marry a miliary officer (I was an Army brat), but the truth was that I could not get along with them because they were too used to people being subordinate to them and following their orders, request, wishes, etc. I knew that I’d need to be with someone that was more laid back than me to balance out my somewhat high-strung personality (at times). He was also going to have to be comfortable with my career path and not feel jeopardized, so I knew that it would proabably be someone not looking to to get into management and would most likely earn less. And I found him and it’s working out just fine.

    Comment by Becky — November 20, 2008 @ 2:34 pm

  7. Brandon

    Re: Your proclamation, what’s your rationale?

    Re: The Cowboy, I think it’s more of the rancher or ranch-hand variety.

    Re: Stay-at-home, it’s not at all uncommon for med students and even residents to live on the public dole when there are children involved.

    Comment by trumwill — November 20, 2008 @ 10:54 pm

  8. One factor that you don’t mention at all but that I’ve noticed is that women doctors are considerably less arrogant that male doctors. I have often wondered why this is. As a lawyer, I can say that male doctors are a great source of commercial litigation because they like to think they’re sophisticated businessmen and they’re not. Translate that over into their relationships, and you can see why male doctors tend to marry homemaker types that they can control.

    Comment by kevin — November 21, 2008 @ 12:27 pm

  9. kevin: women are less arrogant than men, on average. (Remember how women always insist that their men be self-confident? So naturally some guys overdo it.) So you’d expect women doctors to be less arrogant.

    Could be wrong about the female nerd thing, I just remember Philip Greenspun’s bit about the smartest women he knew at MIT having gone to med school.

    Comment by SFG — November 21, 2008 @ 5:02 pm

  10. Will:
    I believe that romantic relationships work best when the man is someone the woman can look up to in most ways, or at the very least her equal. If she outearned me, I’d be worried that she would respect me less for it. It may well be an unfounded concern, but it’s something I’d rather not have to worry about.

    Comment by Brandon Berg — November 24, 2008 @ 2:53 am

  11. Kevin,

    I got a kick out of your comment on male doctors. Doctors in general have a terrible reputation on handling money due to arrogance at their proficiency outside their area of expertise, but maybe they got that reputation largely on the shoulders of the men.

    Comment by trumwill — November 24, 2008 @ 9:33 pm

  12. Brandon,

    That’s an interesting perspective. I think that there is something to the notion that a wife should be able to look up to her husband in many ways, but I disagree in that I think that should work both ways (ie the two have different strengths and weaknesses). I actually have the opening stages of a post about how important it is not to marry someone better than you.

    Comment by trumwill — November 24, 2008 @ 9:37 pm

RSS feed for comments on this post.

Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.