Jonas lived with us for a couple of months while I was a sophomore in high school. There are so many stories I could tell about Jonas, but I’m going to try to focus on just one aspect of the story. Jonas was the seventeen year old son of the shadow minister of science and technology from an eastern European country. He stayed with us while he was an intern at the Air Force installation where my father worked. One week out of the couple of months was my family’s annual trip to Shell Beach, which Jonas had gotten clearance to go to. We thought that it’d be great to be a great way to cap off his trip to the United States and to get some downtime while he’s here.
Long story short, by the time that Shell Beach rolled around we were no longer looking forward to it. We were horrified at the prospect of spending a week with him. He was overbearing, obnoxious, arrogant, and extraordinarily immature. His attitude towards women didn’t particularly help. He had a tendency to hoot and holler like a construction worker at women that he found attractive. He also managed to get himself kicked out of the neighborhood pool for reasons he would not explain.
Our annual trip to Shell Beach was usually coordinated with another family from church that we were close to, the Lamonts. The Lamonts have three daughters, about 23, 17, and 12. The older daughter was married (or maybe just engaged at that point) and the younger was only about to turn a teenager, but the middle daughter was not only single but was absolutely gorgeous. Not just gorgeous, but intelligent and sweet as well. Jonas was a relatively attractive guy (solidly in station two), but his brash immaturity was almost certain to clash with her quiet sweetness and not in a compatible way. This was further complicated by Jonas’s seeming inability to read people.
It was on the way to Shell Beach that we discovered that the middle daughter wasn’t the one that we needed to be worrying about. He had his eyes set squarely on The Little Cowpoke. She was named as such because she was the only one eligible to eat off the Little Cowpoke menu at one of the restaurants in the area that was reserved for 12 and under. She was excited because this was the year that she was going to outgrow the menu that had given her the nickname.
You know those scenes in sitcoms wherein half the cast sees something that everyone else is oblivious to? It’s usually the case in these shows that those least affected see it most clearly. That was the case with us. We saw Jonas honing in on her immediately. The Lamonts just thought that it was so nice that he was being so nice to her. We waited for them to figure it out and slowly they did. It started with a slight discomfort with his attention towards her. Then they started kinda mentioning “Isn’t that a little bit weird?” We never said anything because when we complained about him they’d been scolding us for not being more open-minded about people from different cultures. Then, once they figured out what was going on, they showed the same hesitation towards telling Crissy that we showed in telling them.
Their reasoning was different, though. Crissy was oblivious to it all. Jonas would play his games like acting like he couldn’t hear her so that he could move in a little bit closer and you could just see the look on her face “Is this guy really that deaf?” They hoped that once we got to Shell Beach he would find other people to notice. They didn’t want to make any waves when the situation might resolve itself. We all kept our eye on him (and her), though.
Nothing ever came of it. As the Lamonts had hoped, he moved on when it became clear just how oblivious Crissy was. He found some slightly older girls to hit on, which relieved us greatly. We were friends with the Lamonts, but we didn’t know how we would even begin to explain the situation to some random guy on the beach with his thirteen year old daughter. Nothing about that was going to end well.
After Jonas went back to his native country, we started hearing these rumors at the swimming pool. We heard about this guy with this accent who was hitting on ten year olds girls to the point that they kicked him out altogether. We don’t know for a fact that they were talking about Jonas, though if they were they were probably exaggerating how old the girls were. They were probably twelve, too. Anyhow, before kicking him out, they lifeguards pulled him aside and told him to back off. “You don’t understand,” the stranger said, “You have to get to them when they’re young before they get set to certain ways of thinking.”
Ewwwwwwww…..
What “way of thinking” would that be? That guys like him are gross?
I have known guys like this. Their Vin diagram has substantial overlap with the Weasel Vin diagram. Their problem is that they are disablingly immature, so in order to have an hope of impressing anyone they have to seek out much younger people.
Comment by Spungen — May 11, 2008 @ 11:55 pm
Jonas sort of reminds me of someone … no, guess not.
Comment by Peter — May 12, 2008 @ 7:25 am
I cannot wait to see where this comment thread goes
Comment by Barry — May 12, 2008 @ 8:57 am
@Peter: I don’t date girls below the age of 16.
In a lot of countries, it is not that strange for guys in their midd and late teens to have 12-13 year old girlfriends. In Turkey there was recently a case where Marco Weiss (17) had a relationship with a 13 year old birtish girl. A friend of mine who is 19 has a 13 year old girlfriend. In Argentina a 17 year old with a developed 12 year old girl would still be normal. Not even in West germany a 17 year old would get funny looks with a 12-13 year old, although in theory it would be ilegal, but de facto tolerated.
10 year girls however not. So if he really was hitting on 190 year old girls he got what he deserved.
I also wanted to say that the great Black popsinger R. Kelly may face up to 15 years of jail for having consententual sex with a 13 year old willing teen. Brothers, let’s us unite us against this injustice.
By the way, a friend of mine who is 19 has a 13 year old gf., and they make a good couple. She looks older though.
Comment by Gannon — May 12, 2008 @ 9:05 am
You know, of all of the cases one can choose to rally behind in favor of loosening AOC laws, R Kelly is an extraordinarily bad one. It was outside the context of a relationship (ie no “true love” motivation), videotaped, and while he was in his late twenties-to-thirties. Surely there are better cases to use than that.
Comment by trumwill — May 12, 2008 @ 9:25 am
R kelley is a famous Pop singer. A lot of teen girls like men as old as 35. At around 30 a men is at his prime, whereas a woman is at her prime at around 20.
I advocate for an AOC of 14, so this girl was 13. However, this guy is famous. There must be thousands of teen girls (specially black ones) who probably masturbate every night thinking about this guy.
Comment by Gannon — May 12, 2008 @ 9:33 am
When do universal standards of morality eventually supersede cultural norms?
Hundreds of years ago, tribes of headhunters, cannibals, etc were boiling missionaries in stewpots for dinner. Maybe it’s still going on today, who knows. But regardless how acceptable and commonplace that might be in their culture, nobody in the civilized world would give a moment’s consideration that it was a Good and Right thing to do.
The Aztecs and other ancient Central and South American civilizations had no qualms with disemboweling their victims to appease their gods. And they were more civilized in a lot of ways than the European invaders who conquered them.
So when does the rest of the world recognize that turning our heads at cultures that willingly sacrifice the childhood of their children to appease the horny appetites of older men is an immortal thing to do, only a couple steps up the evolutionary ladder from Stanley & Livingston Stew and the Quetzalcoatl Quisinart?
Comment by Barry — May 12, 2008 @ 10:56 am
So when does the rest of the world recognize that turning our heads at cultures that willingly sacrifice the childhood of their children to appease the horny appetites of older men is an immortal thing to do,
In the long term, I think that the solution is to generate wealth and negate the question.
I think that to some degree we have to admit that some cultures are ahead and others behind. The worst aspects of the FLDS, for instance, wasn’t what we would classify as abuse, but that the alleged abuse served no practical purpose beyond gratification. I could see an alternate context where such behavior might make sense. If there’s war that’s killing off a lot of the men, for instance. If such an arrangement is necessary to get the men to protect the women and so forth.
The FLDS, though, lives in one of the wealthiest nations in the history of mankind. None of it was necessary. They had to do bad thing (cultural isolation) after bad (kicking young men out) just to keep the ultimate bad thing (psychological and sexual abuse of minors) going. I would consider cutting the FLDS more slack if they didn’t exist in a nation where there were so many other ways for society to work.
The long term answer, I think, is for the rest of the world to become as wealthy as the United States is today. Or was fifty years ago. Or whatever. We sometimes like to think of the noble savage vs the pampered and slovenly civilized world and romanticize the former and dismiss the latter as crass materialism, but desperation causes outrageously bad things to happen and raising standards of living is about the best thing that we can do address that.
Unfortunately, there’s no clear way to get underdeveloped parts of the world from here to there. Trade and charity help, but they have their limits.
Comment by trumwill — May 12, 2008 @ 11:26 am
In the short term, we have to ask ourselves what we’re willing to do about it. High-minded proclamations that we will not let something stand are met with the question of whether or not we will actually go to war over human rights. Further, if we won’t, then do those rights even exist in any meaningful capacity?
We use Rwanda as an example, but Burma has been making the headlines recently. Are we willing to let the Burmese die? Are we willing to risk another foreign occupation trying to tame a civilization that we have no control over? The latter is a moot question because we don’t have the capacity even if we had the will.
There are certainly questions that we can ask ourselves. I have said before that right and wrong do not exist independently of the cultural context and I believe it to be true. Are there things that are always wrong? I’d imagine so, though it’s not the highest crime there is, murder. Americans execute convicted murders. Is that right? I don’t think it is, but I’m in the minority and even I would agree that it’s not as wrong as whatever it was that got them there (assuming that they’re guilty). But whether something like capital punishment is right or wrong depends on the competence of the government administering it.
I’d having more faith in our system than the Burmese one, so ours is not as wrong as theirs. And even I, an opponent of the death penalty, would consent to murder under some circumstances if I could be convinced that it would be the only effective option to accomplish something that saves lives.
On the other hand, forced rape is always wrong. We can all agree on that even if we can’t stop it from happening. So maybe there is something universal to be considered with that as a starting point.
Comment by trumwill — May 12, 2008 @ 11:39 am
Your arrogance on this forum is sickening Barry. In Italy, AOC is 14. So is in Austria. In Germany it’s 14/16, in Iceland and France 15. I can also guarantee you that a teen belowe 18 who has sex with a 12, 13 willing girl in Europe won’t be prosecuted, or will at worst get a slap on the wrist. Western Europe is almost as rich as the US. But the average European is much more enlightened than the average US American. The average European is likely to speak several languages, and has knowledge in History, Art, Music and Philosophy. Us high age of consent laws are an expression of a sexually backward and retrograde culture, heavily influenced by a missunderstood christianity. (The God of the bible wants girls to marry young in their teens as early as 13, Ruth, Rachel, and the Holy Mary all married at 13-14 to older men) and feminist who want to restrict men’s acces to vagina, by restricting men’s acces to young marriageable teen girls and divert that interest towards aging thirtysomething single and divorced mothers.
A child is by definition a human who can’t yet procreate. For better or for worse, at 14/15 women reach their biological adulthood. In fact, it’s not easy to distinguish 15 from 18 year olds, because girls at 14 already have reached adult weight, height and have round beautiful breasts and cushioned ample bottoms plus a glorious natural belt.
To make it short, high US age of consent laws are the product of a prude retrograde puritan morality and the maquination of feminists.
Comment by Gannon — May 12, 2008 @ 11:57 am
By the way, in Japan, which is even richer than the US, HS girls and middle school girls sleep with older men for money on a regular basis. Although ilegal, the autorities de facto tolerate it. A woman’s salad days are extremely short, around 15-20, as a famous US thinker said.
Comment by Gannon — May 12, 2008 @ 12:02 pm
By the way, in Japan, which is even richer than the US, HS girls and middle school girls sleep with older men for money on a regular basis.
I’m actually curious about the criteria that you’re using to determine the comparative wealth of the US and Japan. I would expect that there are nations out there wealthier than the United States, but I wouldn’t expect Japan to be on that list.
As to your point, just because the Japanese are wealthy and do it doesn’t make it right. The United States is quite wealthy but certainly has its moral shortcomings, after all. The wealth makes it more likely to be wrong, actually, or likely to be more wrong. On the other hand, to the extent that prostitution and teenage sex with older men are wrong, they are not nearly as wrong as the things that I was thinking about in my previous comments.
Comment by trumwill — May 12, 2008 @ 1:03 pm
What you consistenly refuse, or are incapable of, understanding is that just because a country sets its AOC laws at a certain age doesn’t make it right. Or moral. To me. And the vast, vast majority of the 350+ million Americans.
I’m not advocating that the US should force all other nations to raise their AOC laws to match ours, but that we collectively agree that our children are too immature emotionally to understand what it really means to consent to sex, especially with someone several years older than them. They are also expected to attend high school until around 17-18, in which case they (should be) more or less prepared to stand on their own financially. And they should, even if mom and dad are paying for college they should be able to manage their own affairs (both financial and romantic).
But there’s no reason to prepare a young girl for marriage or starting a family when they’re that young - there’s a great deal to be gained by prolonging the innocence of childhood until they are truly mature enough to handle being an adult.
What it comes down to is men like you, Gannon, can’t stand to see these ripe young pretty girls just standing around, going to proms with the high school quarterback or awkwardly flirting with the cute geeky guy in her geometry class, or crying to their mom one night because “that guy” won’t pay any attention to her. You and the others want to use them up young and throw them away before their “over-ripe” at age 20 and would therefore be wise to you. You prove it over and over and over again by comments like they have “beautiful breasts” and “cushioned ample bottoms”, etc. You have no desire to fall in love or raise families with these girls, you just want to do them. Or have them do you, more likely.
I have news for you. A child is so absolutely not just a human who can’t yet procreate. Biology does not create a woman, her mind does. While a girl may be able to physically have a child at 12 or 13, she is still a child until she becomes a mature woman a few years later. I think just about any American woman you ask will agree that they weren’t yet mature at 14, and any sexual relationships they might have had around that time was a mistake.
You proclaim to have such knowledge of American women, feminists, Christians, all of our culture when you have absolutely, exactly zero knowledge of it. Now who’s arrogant?
Comment by Barry — May 12, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
The comments of an aging harpie like you don’t affect me at all. In fact, you posts prove everything I have ever said. You are probably only an obese single mother with sagging breasts. I love my gf and intend to marry her.
Comment by Gannon — May 12, 2008 @ 2:48 pm
I’ve just had to put one of Gannon’s comments under moderation, and that makes me sad. Gannon, please reread the comments policy.
Comment by Webmaster — May 12, 2008 @ 3:21 pm
As for Gannon’s argument about the “enlightened” countries having lower ages… he’s actually just cherry-picking his numbers.
I was going to make a generality about most lowered ages of consent (the ridiculously lowered ones) coinciding with FLDS or muslim/arab/african/indonesian-style covers for abusive behavior, which I believe I’m pretty close on. Interestingly enough, though, there are aberrations even there. Egypt’s age of consent is universally 18, higher than much of the US. There’s also the running question of whether the law is enforced or not, and a number of prominent cases in recent international humanitarian law have shown that a number of muslim countries are pretty much ignoring their own laws altogether when it comes to the forced marriage of underage, sometimes prepubescent, girls. For Instance… #2… #3… It wanders to Europe more than you know as well… In cultural impact/reasoning, the “prophet” Mohammed’s “favorite” wife was a 6-year-old girl (at time he married her) named Aisha… though sometimes the claim is made he waited till she was 9 to actually force himself on her (which would still make her prepubescent anyways). The fact that Mohammed is the “ultimate example” for a Muslim man contributes some pretty odd influence on muslim male behavior.
Another issue in emotional maturity is the experiences of the culture. I’d make the argument that an agrarian culture would tend towards earlier emotional maturity, since it lends itself more towards putting personal responsibility on the kids at a young age.
There’s also the difference between societies of longer and shorter life expectancies, though that number needs some correcting. Measuring life expectancy versus “average expectancy of those who lived past age 12″ often results in a massive boost in countries that have a high infant/child mortality rate due to poverty or a smattering of high-incidence child diseases. Often the second is more correct for analyzing a societal life expectancy for the purpose of defining “of age”, “middle aged”, and “elderly” since the expectation won’t be that you should have kids before you die at age 22 (the death toll around there will actually be pretty low), but that if you made it to 12, you’re likely to make it to at least 40.
Comment by Webmaster — May 12, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
After discussing said comment with Barry, we decided to take it out of moderation after agreeing that the accusation was more funny than offensive.
Comment by trumwill — May 12, 2008 @ 8:57 pm
I also wanted to say that the great Black popsinger R. Kelly may face up to 15 years of jail for having consententual sex with a 13 year old willing teen. Brothers, let’s us unite us against this injustice.
He had sex with a CHILD and in doing so, he taped the experience and urinated on her. There is no way that I’m going to unite to go defend him from his crimes. There are plenty of other black men who agree with me that he’s a sick pervert who abused a young girl.
However, this guy is famous. There must be thousands of teen girls (specially black ones) who probably masturbate every night thinking about this guy.
It shouldn’t matter that he’s famous. He took advantage of a young girl in order to fufill his sexual fetish.
The God of the bible wants girls to marry young in their teens as early as 13, Ruth, Rachel, and the Holy Mary all married at 13-14 to older men
Just because the Bible says something doesn’t make it magically true. Given the fact that the lunar Hebrew does not map with our calendar, and the oral histories behind these religious texts, it may be possible that the ages are off.
Besides, as I’ve pointed out, if the women of my mother and grandmother’s generation in Haiti achieved menarche in their late teens, I seriously question the stories of rampant teen births (but not marriage) in history.
I love my gf and intend to marry her.
Dude, you’re 25. Why would you saddle yourself with a wife and kids and such a young age? Secondly, doesn’t she have any hopes, dreams, and desires for herself? Does she only see herself as a simple vessel for your sperm and future children?
Comment by David Alexander — May 12, 2008 @ 9:30 pm
You are probably only an obese single mother with sagging breasts.
——
I’ve just had to put one of Gannon’s comments under moderation, and that makes me sad.
——-
After discussing said comment with Barry, we decided to take it out of moderation after agreeing that the accusation was more funny than offensive.
——-
Especially since, after all his claimed knowledge of American and its culture, he doesn’t realize Barry is a boy’s name. And that all my discussion is coming from a male’s perspective. But I suppose since I don’t agree with him, I must be female.
Comment by Barry — May 13, 2008 @ 7:03 am
Gannon’s definitions:
child:0-11 years of age
transition: 12-13 years of age
young woman: 14-28 years of age
As a result, Gannon advocates age of consent of 14 as a general rule and of 12 if the other partner is below 21.
“Just because the Bible says something doesn’t make it magically true. Given the fact that the lunar Hebrew does not map with our calendar, and the oral histories behind these religious texts, it may be possible that the ages are off.”
You are right, but for Christians it should make it magically true. Somehow however most Christians advocate a marriageable age of 18, going against a clear mandate of the scriptures.
“Besides, as I’ve pointed out, if the women of my mother and grandmother’s generation in Haiti achieved menarche in their late teens, I seriously question the stories of rampant teen births (but not marriage) in history.”
{redacted by administrator}
There is evidence at all that girls had much later menarchies in the past. All roman historic records tell us that roman females married at 13/14 and had healthy children. Sorry DA, women have married as young as 12 througuot all of history. In any way, the case of your grandmother is not a general true, and maybe even a lie (older women always tell that they entered menarchy late, early menarchy is associated with low class it seems).
By the way, DA, some of your brothers seem high AOC as a racist law imposed by the white man:}
quotes:
by chocolate
“r kelly is a very gifted man,if it is true that he did this he need help but if isn’t i’m happy about that, a long time ago age didn’t matter girls were being taken for wives as early is 12 and all because the white man made rules and laws now it is a problem”
It seems that high AOC are not only unreasonable but also racist.
Finally, why R. Kelly should not go to jail.
First of all, the girl looked much older in the tapes, more like 17, so a reasonable age mistake defense seems valid, since R. Kelly probably believed in good faith that she was older. Also, this girl was not an innocent virgin, but more like an experienced little slut. She actively seeked sex with R. Kelly, so she simply got waht she asked for. Also, the relationship seemed to have lasted for two years, this proves there was affection.
-{This comment was modified by trumwill. The example used was poorly chosen}-
Comment by Gannon — May 13, 2008 @ 7:14 am
“Especially since, after all his claimed knowledge of American and its culture, he doesn’t realize Barry is a boy’s name. And that all my discussion is coming from a male’s perspective. But I suppose since I don’t agree with him, I must be female.”
I know that Barry is a man’s name. However, some Americans have the strange custom of giving male names to females. In the US I knew a girl called Bob, I’m not kidding. It really impresses me that a man thinks like a woman. It shows an incredible degree of emasculation (demasculation). You must probably read Hugo Schwyzer blog all day.
Comment by Gannon — May 13, 2008 @ 7:19 am
In any way, the case of your grandmother is not a general true, and maybe even a lie (older women always tell that they entered menarchy late, early menarchy is associated with low class it seems).
My grandmother reached menarche around 15 or so, given the age of my oldest primary aunt, but the ages of menarche in her five daughters as confirmed by the women themselves was at 16 or 17. The low menarche is much more commonplace in poorer women, and is generally perpetuated here in this part of the US with stories of pregnant 12-14 year old Hispanic girls, and 8-10 year old Latinas with periods.
What has changed is that researchers have noted that changes in nutrition are causing lower ages of menarche in *middle class* women in the US, Canada, and Europe.
You are right, but for Christians it should make it magically true. Somehow however most Christians advocate a marriageable age of 18, going against a clear mandate of the scriptures.
Dude, the same Bible says that dark skinned people are the product of some son of Noah disobeying his father. Another part says I should avoid touching women during menstruation, and that I should stay away from pork and shellfish. The Bible is a religious text that we use to help guide our spiritual beliefs, but it certainly isn’t a fixed rigid guide of how to live.
By the way, DA, some of your brothers seem high AOC as a racist law imposed by the white man
No, it’s a law designed to protect our children, both male and female, from obsessed adults who want to damage and permanently scar our children to satisfy their sexual tastes. These laws protect children of all races, and in this case, it’s the case of an adult black male molesting a young black female.
Besides, the argument used by that poster is faulty. With the same logic, anybody can argue that blacks should be enslaved because that’s what previous law allowed for.
Also, this girl was not an innocent virgin, but more like an experienced little slut.
That doesn’t prohibit the girl from being experienced due to other older men abusing her in a similar fashion before R Kelly met her.
She actively seeked sex with R. Kelly, so she simply got waht she asked for.
Yes, a lot of young girls like celebrities, but that doesn’t preclude R Kelly from using common sense and determining if this 17 year old is really a 17 year old. Besides, R Kelly should be fearful given the propensity of many women regardless of age to want to have his child as a tool to derive fame and large child support checks.
Also, the relationship seemed to have lasted for two years, this proves there was affection.
Abused and battered women can easily spend years with their abusive boyfriends and husbands.
Comment by David Alexander — May 13, 2008 @ 12:17 pm
Dude, the same Bible says that dark skinned people are the product of some son of Noah disobeying his father.
Woah, now that one I haven’t heard. I’ve heard something comparable in Mormonism (The tribes got their dark skin from a curse), but not the Bible itself.
Comment by trumwill — May 13, 2008 @ 12:27 pm
The Curse of Ham in the book of Genesis. I’ll let the wikipedia article explain the rest.
Comment by David Alexander — May 13, 2008 @ 1:38 pm
By thew way, it seems to be that it is part of traditional African and African American culture for men to sleep with girls as young as 12 (Gannon advocates 14), so high AOC are DEFINITIVELY RACIST and only an Uncle Tom would say otherwise. Where is Jesse Jackson when you need him?
Comment by Gannon — May 13, 2008 @ 3:19 pm
it seems to be that it is part of traditional African and African American culture for men to sleep with girls as young as 12
If it’s a part of traditional African or Black American culture, then maybe it’s time to deprecate those sad aspects of our culture here in the United States. Being against an abusive practice doesn’t make me an Uncle Tom or a “sellout”, and only encourages bad traits in the black community in the US.
Comment by David Alexander — May 13, 2008 @ 3:32 pm
Can you get kicked out of a community pool for killing pervs? Because if a 17-year-old ever hit on my 12 or 10 year old daughter….
Comment by Abel — May 13, 2008 @ 4:23 pm